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Incidentally, prior to playing traditional, I studied with a guy in LA who was really into matched grip. He was a great drummer--great technique, great phrasing, years of education under his belt--but he never played with that smoothness that I love.
And when he played jazz, he always switched to traditional grip because, even with his perfect matched grip technique, he still couldn't pull off the slick doubles-oriented phrasing you hear a lot of in jazz.
One thing I've noticed. I'm a 99% matched player, but I'll be danged if it ain't easier and more natural feeling to tap on my knees while watching TV in the trad style.
I was watching the recent Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame today and saw Steve Ferrone back there grooving like crazy using traditional. Now, he's a guy who latently switched from matched to trad, right? Anybody know his story? Another thing I've noticed is anytime Weckle, Colaiuta, et al are asked why they play traditional, they seem to always respond with "can't teach an old dog new tricks." It seems such an un-mysterious, simple answer.
One more thing. I also started matched, took lessons and learned trad, then switched back to matched again, but there was that weird and uncomfortable period of transition. I always "toy" with the idea of applying trad to more of my playing. Will there be a point - if I dedicate practice correctly - where I will feel equally comfortable with both techniques?
Right.... [img]mad.gif[/img]
It apperars to me that a number of you are er.... well... um..... MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY! Firstly matched Vs traditional is a futile and worthless debate for the simple reason that there is no superior grip, fact. It is what works better for the INDIVIDUAL. One guys left handed match grip is another guys traditional. Whatever allows a drummer to execute their ideas fully is the correct one.
The history of the traditional grip comes from Basle, Switzerland where the marching drummers, over time had their snare drums further and further to their left side and it got to a point where matched grip wasn't working to it's full extent, thus the traditional grip came into being. The player could have the drum over to his left and angled inwards and with the 'new' grip, was able to get to the drum.
Regarding which grip is better for 'fast singles or doubles'. WHO CARES???? Vinnie Vs Dennis, Novak Vs Virgil, it's all arbitary nonsence. They are all ridiculous players and again use a grip that is preferable to them at the time. I have seen Vinnie play with matched and Dennis play with trad, Erskine will use both too, so what. Why does one feel it necessary to work out some sort of correlation and come up with which grip is the best? Whatever grip you choose should be an emotional decision based and dictaded on by the MUSIC.
Which brings me to my final point.... again (and I appologise for going on about this yet again!!) If a number of you are that bothered by how you can exercise your bloody doubles faster, then may I direct you to Art Verdi or that stupid worlds fastest drummer site. This has bugger all to do with music. See how benefitial your blistering doubles get you when you've got to lay down a solid groove for 5 minutes without faultering!
Incidently, if you visit Art Verdi's site you will find absolutely no evidence of any recording he has made, bands or players that he has worked with or any contribution to music at all. His site is totally dedicated to his ability to play fast on the drum kit. I suppose that's fine if you want to be the fastest player in the world or are happy to spend your time filming your kick ass singles in your bedroom, but I would rather play with other musicians, react and interact with them and hopefully creating something enjoyable for the listener. I'd be interested to see Art play with a group... of all the videos on his website - and there are LOADS. How many show him in a real live playing situation with other musicians?
The point about "Virgil plays traditional, Vinnie plays traditional, Weckl plays traditional. Traditional is better. Makes for easier doubles." Is totally (in my most humble of opinion's!) redundant. So does that mean that whoever has the fastes doubles is 'the winner'?!?! Come on now, do you HONESTLY believe that?
A case in point would be Bill Stewart who to my reckoning is one of the very few jazz drummers that play matched grip. He's the exeption to the rule as it were, but having said that, I often see him switch to trad aswell! What does that prove? Well I'll tell you... er.... well... um.... NOTHING!! There you go! If you were to ask him why he swapped, I bet his answer would be 'I dunno, it just felt right' and not 'well I needed to do fly round my drum kit at 110 mph so I just had to swap grips!
For what it's worth (and very little I hope!) I play traditional mostly as it just feels more comfortable to me, simple as that. It allows me to execute everything I need to, ie singles, doubles, ghost notes with ease. Sometimes I turn to matched, mainly for pop or stuff that requires a backbeat as it just feels nice that's all. No huge debate about whether I can pull off hemi demi semiquavers at breakneck speed - IT JUST FEELS COMFORTABLE. I can still carry off all my singles and doubles with matched, cause I have practiced it both ways.
So to sum up this debate, I would say that you should let the MUSIC dictate what you play - ALWAYS. Regarding which grip you choose, it doesn't matter, use whatever is comfortable to you and will make your playing and the music sound and feel as best as it can. Use your bloody ears if necessary, just be sure to ditch your ego along with ALL notions of fast singles and doubles, close your eyes and try to make good MUSIC.
Incidently - I would be interested to hear Eskoman's take on this - are you out there Peter?!?!
[img]graemlins/music.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 30, 2004 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Dazzler ]</font>
Really? Bill Stewart switches back and forth? I never knew...
I know there's lot of drummers playing traditional that play smoothly....but does that really have to do anything with the grip? If you think about it, one hand is still playing matched, meaning that smoothness (or doubles) are being played exactly the same with the matched hand....
You hit the nail right on the head, Dazzler. That grip debate is total nonsense. You just have to play what you hear, no matter how! Compare drumming to writing for a second... Who cares how author x holds his pen? So why should we care about drummer y's grip? Do you think that holding a pencil in some other method will pull new ideas to your mind? I don't understand this debate. By the way, my english still sucks so don't worry if you see something weird...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 30, 2004 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Samuel Lambert ]</font>
Let me also say this:
Soon the debate of matched VS Trad will be settled.
Forever.
All will be revealed soon.
The very point of a drum forum is for discussions such as this. It's no contest obviously but just an oppurtunity to share opinions. That answers the WHY and WHATS THE POINT question.
I play drums to make music, a lot of guys do. Some guys don't. Doesn't have much to do with the point of the pros and cons of the two grips (the point of this discussion). If I feel one grip allows me to play with an advantage obviously that will help me support the music better if that is my ultimate goal. If my goal is to be the fastest drummer alive then guess what? I'm still going with the grip I feel gives me an advantage. That answers the whole THE POINT IS TO PLAY MUSIC thing.
If someone that normally plays matched occasionaly switches to traditional that means squat to me. I've never seen Stewart play traditional but I'de be willing to bet that when he does it doesnt help him bmuch, or sound that different. He doesnt have the technique to take advantage of what traditional gip has to offer. Him switching to traditional is the same as me getting behind the wheel of an airplane. Am I all the sudden a pilot?
Which reminds me:
Unless you've spent the MANY YEARS that it takes to develop the things that only traditional grip can facilitate, then you literally don't know what your talking about. The grip allows the left hand to do things that cannot be done IN THE SAME WAY with matched. It makes a difference. The difference is it sounds better (to me and many others), and it's EASIER to play certain things (to me and many others) and so THIS IS THE BIG WHY FOLKS. A technical advantage that allows you to do things that would otherwise not be possible (or as easy) or else we would have at least ONE matched player having the same flow that the great traditional grip players have. As of now, there is none.
Coincidence? I think not.
A different take... here's an article I ran into after googling for something I remembered about the amount of muscles involved with each grip.
Article
Steve, I would have to go with your explanation of trad grip being advantageous over matched, because I don't know much about trad grip.
But on the point of gary novak, to single one drummer out that you mentioned, what is it about his playing that doesn't flow as well as the others? [img]graemlins/wonder.gif[/img]
To me, he sounds like a more musical version of weckl, and extremely fluid in everything he plays. That's from listening to him with chick corea.